Showing posts with label internaciismo. Show all posts
Showing posts with label internaciismo. Show all posts

2017-05-21

Gregor Benton on the proletarian Esperanto movement


I vaguely recall the name Gregor Benton from somewhere; I assume he surfaced somewhere in my erstwhile study of the history of Trotskyism. I see that he is a specialist on China and that he has published on Chinese Trotskyism, Maoism, and Chinese communism overall.

I am familiar with Jacobin magazine. In a country where the very name of Marx is taboo, Jacobin is the most widely known Marxist magazine in the country, "widely" being a relative term but at least not totally invisible among the intellectual reading public. Many years ago, when the magazine was still in gestation, at least one person involved in it was interested in interviewing me on C.L.R. James, but this never materialized.

Nobody in the USA, on the left or otherwise, cares about Esperanto, so I was quite surprised when this article surfaced in Jacobin and by which author:

"Communism in Words" by Gregor Benton

"A brief history of Esperanto, the language intimately tied to the common destiny of the working class."

I can imagine the horror of many American Esperantists to see Esperanto associated with communism in this way, though there are some who have mentioned the proletarian Esperanto movement as an historical phenomenon. Benton's father, who fought against the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, defended Esperanto to comrades who dismissed it, using the phrase "communism in words" (which I have never seen anywhere else). Gregor himself learned Esperanto and delivered a euology to his father in Esperanto for the Catalan Esperanto Association.

This is a very good article, with a good historical overview and an objective assessment, advocating Esperanto in a realistic way without hype and cultism, and even with his particular interest as a man of the left.

Benton provides a capsule summary of Zamenhof and of the Esperanto movement's history and present status, then launches into the history of the proletarian Esperanto movement and the hostility engendered in reaction to the various causes that embraced Esperanto. Benton mentions the leading international organization, Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda (World Anationalist Association, "SAT" for short), its erstwhile collaboration with the USSR, the eventual Stalinist break with SAT, and the breakaway pro-Moscow Internacio de Proletaj Esperantistoj (International of Proletarian Esperantists).

Benton then covers the persecution of Esperantists by the Nazis and the Stalin regime and its eventual satellite regimes. (Esperanto had a significant presence before the Great Purges. I do not recall the Communist International ever endorsing Esperanto''s rival Ido, though I do remember Ido was part of the mix.) With de-Stalinization, the Esperanto movement was revived in the Soviet bloc, and its association there with the "peace movement" was a vehicle for Esperanto to thrive.

Benton also outlines the history of Esperanto in China, its early association with anarchism and communism. He mentions also the Japanese woman Hasegawa Teru (known by the Esperanto pseudonym "Verda Majo" = Green May) who was to join with the Chinese against Japanese aggression. In Maoist China, Esperanto was initially suppressed, then tolerated, then later, even while under suspicion during the Cultural Revolution, was widely used by the regime for Maoist propaganda. The Esperanto movement thrived in the post-Mao era, but its strength has vacillated.

Finally, Benton tackles the future prospects of Esperanto, with respect to the global changes that have transpired since its early days and what this means for the role and fate of the language -- in recent decades the effects of the fall of the Soviet bloc, the decreased reliance on traditional Esperantist membership organizations, and the rise of online communication. Esperanto thrives in the digital age, and the values it represents are as relevant as ever.


2011-01-03

Zamenhof & the new Jewish intellectual historiography (3)

Transnationalism and the Jews of the Nineteenth Century | Central European University, 2009/10 course syllabus & bibliography, Carsten L. Wilke, Instructor.

The sections of the bibliography are:

1. Diaspora, transnationalism, cultural transfer: fundamental concepts
2. Diaspora, patriotism and national fragmentation
3. Global economy, capital and consumerism
4. Non-Jewish models of internationalism
5. Religious constructions of ethic universalism in Germany and Italy
6. The intersection of Jewish solidarity and the universal "civilizing mission" in France
7. Beyond nationalisms in Central Europe

Marsha L. Rozenblit, Reconstructing a national identity: The Jews of Habsburg Austria during World War I, New York: Oxford University Press, 2001, p. 14-38. [savepdf]
"A Jew's attitude toward the 'nationality fraud'", in: Wilma Abeles Iggers (ed.), The Jews of Bohemia and Moravia: a historical reader, Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1992, p. 144-145, 220-223. [savepdf]

Ludwik Lazar ZamenhofDr. Esperanto's International Language, Warsaw: Zamenhof, 1889, p. 3-24. [link]
8. Modern "shtadlanut" and global philanthropy
9. The Alliance Israélite Universelle
10. The Jewish vision of East-Western reconciliation
Note: David A. Brenner, Marketing identities: the invention of Jewish ethnicity in 'Ost und West', Detroit, MI: Wayne State University Press, 1998, p. 22-28, 40-42, 63-71. [savepdf]
11. Extremists in search of the stateless utopia
Note:  Michael Löwy, Redemption and utopia: Jewish libertarian thought in Central Europe. A study in elective affinity, trl. by Hope Heaney, London: The Athlone Press, 1992, p. 14-26; optional reading: p. 47-66. [savepdf]
12. The anti-Semitic myth of Jewish transnationalism

2010-12-07

Universal Races Congress of 1911 & L. L. Zamenhof

Decades ago I read the conference proceedings in hard copy, but now they are online, and hopefully complete:

Papers on Inter-Racial Problems, Communicated to the First Universal Races Congress, Held at the University of London, July 26-29, 1911; edited by Gustav Spiller. London: P. S. King & Son; Boston: The World’s Peace Foundation, 1911. xlvi, 485 pp.

Included in these papers is the English text of Zamenhof's contribution, which was originally submitted in Esperanto and in French. Sometime in the 1970s I read the entire proceedings cover to cover, and there were few contributions that impressed me, foremost among them an essay by W.E.B. Du Bois on the racial situation in the USA. But perhaps now I would be more historically perceptive.

I decided to look this up, as earlier today I read the Esperanto version in Zamenhof's Originala Verkaro (1929, pp. 345-353). This time I paid reasonably close attention to Zamenhof's reasoning, which while flawed, is interesting, esp. in juxtaposition with his writings elsewhere on the Jewish question. Oddly, Zamenhof is well aware of existing social conditions (though teeth-grindingly ill-informed about Africa) and is unsparing in demystifying the entirely bogus basis on which racial and ethnic discrimination is based, and yet remains—so it seems—obtuse to certain aspects of the driving forces which maintain them. The climax of Zamenhof's argument—the key to its fundamental structure—can be found in this paragraph:

All that I have said justifies us in formulating this principle: The diversity of peoples and the hatred of each other which they betray will not wholly disappear from the face of the earth until humanity has but one language and one religion. Then in truth will the whole of humanity form one single people. Then there may, indeed, still be the various kinds of discord which are now found within the confines of every country and every people, such as political and economic discords, or those of conflicting parties or classes, and so on, but the most formidable of all discords, the mutual hatred of peoples, will have entirely disappeared.
This follows upon the logic of Zamenhof's argument wherein he purports to explain the governing factors behind interethnic & interracial enmity, discounting most of the usual justifications. It is a curious argument, with a number of suppressed premises. Here is one revealing passage:
Can we say, for instance, that so many millions of poor Russians hate the millions of poor Chinese on economic grounds, when they shed their blood so willingly to defend their Russian oppressors against the attacks of foreigners? Assuredly not, for the Russian soldier knows very well, when he kills a Chinese soldier, that the man would never do him as much harm as the "mailed fist" of his own compatriots. It is not economic causes that give rise to national hatreds.
I do not know how keen a sense of irony Zamenhof possessed. When you read this paragraph with care, and in context, you may find it as amazing as I do, for what Zamenhof doesn't say as for what he does. He never follows up on this scenario, never answers the question: if poor Russian cannon fodder know full well their Russian oppressors are far more harmful to them to Chinese peasants they are willing to slaughter with gusto, and if underlying motivations for this situation are not economic, then what are they? Zamenhof's argument is that only language and religion ultimately keep people apart. (Note also that Zamenhof also interjects the Jewish question, which is the key to everything he wrote, into his exposition.) This is truly an amazing line of argument, because while it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it constitutes a backhanded slap in the face to the actual sociopolitical conditions that Zamenhof seeks to combat, combining both political awareness and political self-censorship in a single line of reasoning.

Two decades later, Zamenhof's daughter Lidia would pursue a comparable agenda in the USA, promoting both Esperanto and the Baha'i religion (rather than Zamenhof's homaranismo), with the noblest of intentions but with identical social ineffectuality. There is also, I should add, at least an iota of documentation on Lidia's connection with black Bahai's who learned Esperanto in the USA in the 1930s.

It would also be instructive to compare Zamenhof's moral idealism and world view with two other participants in the 1911 Congress: Felix Adler, conference organizer and founder of the Ethical Culture movement, akin to Zamenhof's homaranismo, and Israel Zangwill, originator of the term "melting pot" (which he applied not only to the condition of immigrants in the USA, but ultimately to the whole world), proto-Zionist, and advocate of the Jewish contribution to world civilization in books and numerous essays published in every venue imaginable, including the African-American press, with frequent mentions of Zamenhof and Esperanto.

*     *     *

It is useful to compare this essay to Zamenhof's writings (originally in Russian) on the Jewish question— Hilelismo etc. Zamenhof is quite soberly hard-headed and realistic; he's a debunker and demystifier of then-accepted notions of race, ethnicity, nationality, or what some scholars today call "imagined communities". His remark about powerless poor people killing one another in service to the rich and powerful is an illustration of his realism, and remains, sadly, an entirely contemporary issue. It is curious, though, that he doesn't follow through on the logic of this scenario. He argues that all other social conflicts will remain, but were people to find a common bridge language and bridge religion, at least interethnic hatreds could be eliminated. There are some big "if"s here and dubious "then"s, which reveal the essential limitations of Zamenhof's social perspective. (I would argue the same for Adler and Zangwill.) If I were to recommend explaining how Zamenhof thought while standing on one foot, this is the paragraph I would cite.

Zamenhof references the Jewish question in the course of his argument. He explains his position on this more fully in his Hillelist writings, as he ponders all the variables which hold the imagined community of Jews together. Zamenhof ruthlessly demystifies all the usual explanations. His skepticism is quite remarkable. He supplies arguments about what holds other peoples together—Germans, Poles, Russians, etc. He argues that language and religion are what hold peoples together. He is skeptical about both as applies to the Jews: he gave up his reformed Yiddish project, and as a nonbeliever thought it pointless to continue to be martyred for a religion one no longer believes in. So there's a real dilemma, the proposed solution of which ends up being Esperanto + hilelismo/homaranismo as a vehicle for modernizing the ghettoized Eastern European Jews.

There were theoretical interventions on this question in other circles—particularly in the social democratic movement (Marxist) of central Europe, and later in Russia on the part of Stalin. Noteworthy here is the difficulty of defining the cohesive forces binding the Jewish people as compared to any other nationality of central and Eastern Europe. Politically, these issues were parceled out among assimilationists, Zionists, Bundists, Marxist social-democrats, and Bolsheviks. Ultimately, nothing turned out as anyone anticipated in Zamenhof's lifetime. Theoretically, there were individuals in the anti-Stalinist left who attempted to carry on. For example, Abram Leon, a Jewish Trotskyist, wrote a book on the subject circa 1940, and ended up perishing in Auschwitz. In recent decades, there have appeared retrospective works on these developments, pointing up the theoretical inadequacies of previous formulations.

So it is understandable how difficult it was for Zamenhof to struggle with the theoretical as well as the practical question. This applies also to the Esperanto workers' movement, whose anarchist (sennaciista) and Stalinist intellectuals were, as far as I can tell, no more sophisticated than their krokodilaj counterparts.

I can't get into this in my upcoming half-hour talk, but I have to keep it in mind when thinking of how Zamenhof encountered the USA in 1910. The USA presented a whole different scenario from Europe, and as millions of Eastern European Jews voted with their feet, ending up in the USA, there remains something else to be examined—i.e. Zamenhof's interactions with Jewish immigrants and their spawn in the USA.

*     *     *

The American situation of course could not be captured by the European conception of nationality. This applies also to the situation of black Americans. While the concept of "race" has certainly been the dominant organizing principle—conceptually as well as in practice—there have nonetheless been several theories attempting to explain how race works in the USA and elsewhere. A decade ago when I was researching this and assisting someone in a doctoral dissertation on this subject, I could have rattled off most of these theories. My memory is rusty at this point, though.

I'll just note that the Stalinist conception of nationality was imported into the American Communist Party in 1928, leading to some curious results, first in labeling American's apartheid system as a national question, and secondly, in formulating a policy that had no relationship to actual political practice or prospects. When James W. Ford was placed on the ballot as the Communist Vice Presidential candidate in 1932, probably the first such black candidate from any political party in the USA, the party's platform included the creation of a Negro republic in the Southern states with a predominantly black population. There was even a map indicating the relevant territory on campaign posters. It was an avant-garde position for the time and totally divorced from reality as well as from the actual practice of the Communist Party, which consistently fought for integration.

This was entirely opposite to the contemporaneous nationalist separatism of Marcus Garvey, who wanted to make a deal with the Ku Klux Klan on the basis of shared goals, one of them being emigration to / colonization of Africa. Ultimately, notions like these would resurface decades later.

The punchline, though, is that the American configuration of race and ethnicity and the quasi-caste system in place did not mirror the nationality question in central Europe or the Russian empire.

The Jewish question in Europe did not fit comfortably into the European national paradigm either, practically or theoretically. Theory and policy  don't always run parallel, as not every political position elaborates a complementary theory, though implicitly there are differential world views at work. The socialist Bundists for example militantly opposed Zionism but lobbied for cultural (not political) autonomy in Eastern Europe, a notion that was shot down by the Bolsheviks. The Nazis took care of the rest. There is a substantial amount of scholarship on Bundism still going on: see bundism.net.

The ethnicity question viz. the new European immigrants was fought out in the USA a century ago, both by pro-immigrant and anti-immigrant factions among non-immigrants (i.e. WASPs and others of Northwestern European extraction), and by intellectuals among the new immigrant groups, e.g. Israel Zangwill's "melting pot" vs Horace Kallen's conservative ethnopluralism.

It is also noteworthy that there have been ideological conflicts of this sort throughout the history of Esperanto. The implications of Zamenhof's own position, which after all grew out of the conditions of the Czarist empire, require a fair amount of analysis. It is not immediately apparent either what "internationalism" implies, and it was opposed by sennaciismo (anationalism), which in turn finds its polar opposite in etnismo. And then there's the ridiculous position of Giorgio Silfer (one incarnation of raŭmismo), culminating in the supremely ridiculous Esperanta Civito. (I'm a minister in the Esperanta Respubliko, but the less said about that, the better.) The nation-state still being the pivotal determining variable in language policy puts the kabosh on both sennaciismo and etnismo. As for the rest, the social organization of economics and technology as well as where history has left us determine what is going to happen internationally, and the pretensions of the mainstream Esperanto movement both to universalize the role of Esperanto as medium of international communication and to conserve national/ethnic languages and language rights within the boundaries of the nation-state are, to put it as politely as possible, quixotic. What remains unquestionably practical about Esperanto is its niche as a voluntary international speech community, which is nothing to sneeze at.

*     *     *

The fragments above were written on 4 December 2010. I have digitized the Esperanto version of Zamenhof's contribution:

Gentoj kaj Lingvo Internacia (1911) de L. L. Zamenhof

Gentoj kaj Lingvo Internacia (1911) de L. L. Zamenhof

Jen la retligo por:

Papers on Inter-Racial Problems,Communicated to the First Universal Races Congress, Held at the University of London, July 26-29, 1911 edited by Gustav Spiller (1911)

. . . kiu enhavas la anglalingvan version de la kontribuo de Zamenhof al la Universala Kongreso pri Rasoj de 1911. Mi ne trovis la esperantan version interrete, do mi mem skanis kaj enretigis ĝin:

Gentoj kaj Lingvo Internacia (1911) de L. L. Zamenhof

Mi jam komentis pri ĉi tio anglalingve. Mi ne ripetos mian argumenton nun, sed, relegante la tekston, mi perceptas en la argumento de Zamenhof multe da ironio, eĉ se senintenca. Jen ŝlosila ĉerpaĵo:

Ĉu efektive pro kaŭzoj ekonomiaj ekzemple la milionoj da rusaj malriĉuloj malamas la milionojn da ĥinaj malriĉuloj dum, por defendi siajn rusajn premantojn kontraŭ fremduloj, ili tiel volonte verŝas sian sangon? Kompreneble ne, ĉar la rusa soldato, mortigante ĥinan soldaton, scias tre bone, ke tiu ĉi lasta neniam farus al li tiom da malbono, kiom lia samgenta “pugno”. Sekve ne kaŭzoj ekonomiaj kreas la intergentan malamon.
En la senmistifikigaj asertoj pri raso, klimato, ktp., Zamenhof celas senmaskigi pretekstojn de konflikto kaj antipatio, t.e. pruvi ties malraciecon. Sed eĉ malracia preteksto povus esti kaŭzo, aŭ, kiel implicas en la Zamenhofa argumento, simptomo de kaŭzo ne nomita. Fine, en la supre citita rezono, Zamenhof prezentas puzlon kiu restas en sia argumento enigmo. Zamenhof ne blagas, sed oni povus legi ĉi tiun aferon ĉi tiel.

Strange, Zamenhof konkludas, ke la fundamentaj kaŭzaj faktoroj estas lingvo kaj religio, ĉar temas liaopinie pri la fundamentaj psikaj aŭ fremdigaj ligiloj de homaj grupoj. Do ĉi tiuj du facetoj de socio/kulturo estas abstraktigitaj kiel fundamentaj sociaj motoroj. Sed estas strange en la kazo de lingvo, kio estas diferenciga faktoro same kiel iu ajn do povus esti fundamente neŭtrala same kiel Zamenhof argumentas pri fizika tipo, klimato, ktp. Kompreneble, religio neniam estas neŭtrala, sed oni devas ekkoni la historian, socipolitikan enradikiĝon de religiaj institucioj por kompreni la fonton de religiaj ideologioj kaj rilataj sociaj konfliktoj. Ĉiam Zamenhof pensas pri baroj al interkomunikado kaj interkompreniĝo, do li obsedas pri lingvo kaj religio, kvazaŭ tiel oni subfosus la aliajn pretekstojn de socia konflikto.

La kerno de la tuta Zamenhofa ideologio troviĝas jene:
La intergenta diseco kaj malamo plene malaperos en la homaro nur tiam, kiam la tuta homaro havos unu lingvon kaj unu religion; ĉar tiam la tuta homaro en efektiveco prezentos nur unu genton. Daŭros tiam en la homaro tiuj diversaj malpacoj, kiuj regas interne de ĉiu lando kaj gento, kiel ekzemple malpacoj politikaj, partiaj, ekonomiaj, klasaj k.t.p.; sed la plej terura el ĉiuj malpacoj, la malamo intergenta, tute malaperos.
La blindeco de ĉi tiu skemo estas mirinda, sed notu la logikan ordigon de sociaj konceptoj fare de Zamenhof.

Vere, kiam Zamenhof alvenis Usonon, li ne komprenis tute novan socimedion. Post du jardekoj, kiam filino Lidia enmigris Usonon, ŝi pensis sekvi esence la saman logikon, sed per Bahaismo anstataŭ homaranismo. Bahaismo iomete utilis en la usona kunteksto, sole pro ĝia interrasa inkluzivema politiko, sed kompreneble kaj Esperanto kaj Bahaismo estas ĥimeroj en usona medio.

2010-06-14

Esperanto USA 2010 Kongreso (2B): Pluaj komentoj pri prelego de Humphrey Tonkin

Rimarku, ke mia raporto pri la prelego de Humphrey Tonkin pri "Esperanto en la Nuna Mondo" estas sufiĉe diplomateca. Fakte, mi estas multe pli cinika. Komente ĉe la prelego, mi menciis iom el mia skeptikemo, ekz. citante mian sperton de usonaj esperantistoj en la antaŭa usona kongreso en Vaŝingtono en 1987, kiam pluraj usonaj esperantistoj esprimis la saman dekstran tendencon pri hispanlingvanoj en Usono kiel aliaj usonanoj. Mi asertis, ke estas absurdaĵo supozi ke usonaj esperantistoj havas ajnan intereson pri "lingva diskriminacio."

Post miaj komentoj, D-ro Tonkin asertis ke temas pri etika demando de diverseco, identeco, diskriminacio, ktp.

Ĉi tiuj abstraktaj asertoj tute ne konvinkas min. Mi ne perceptas praktikan rilaton inter la abstraktaj supozataj koncernoj de esperantistoj kaj realaj lingvaj, etnaj, naciaj, landaj, kaj internaciaj problemoj. Cetere, mi skeptikas pri la koncepto postmoderisma, kvankam mi komprenas la enhavon sub tiu misetikedo. Mi ankaŭ cinikas pri konceptoj "diverseco" kaj "identeco" favorata de la etburĝa liberalularo.

Cetere, oni ne sufiĉe esploris la situacion de reteca socia agado en sociaj movadoj. Percepteblas, ege evidentas, la kapablo por sinorganizado de movadanoj (la eksplodo de movado de negraj ateistoj/humanistoj en Usono el nenio, nur dum la pasinta jaro, estas elstara ekzemplo!), sed restas la demando de la efikeco de sociaj movadoj al la ĝenerala socio. Oni ja povas brile sin organizi kaj resti socipolitike impotenta.

Esperanto USA 2010 Kongreso (2): Humphrey Tonkin pri “Esperanto en la Nuna Mondo”

Humphrey Tonkin: “Esperanto en la Nuna Mondo”
58-a Landa Kongreso de Esperanto USA

La 30an de majo Humphrey Tonkin prelegis, komence en la angla, poste en Esperanto, pri perskeptivoj de la Esperanto-movado. La mondo je la fino de la 19a jarcento, kiam Esperanto aperis, estas kvalite malsama ol tio aktuala. La tradicia Esperanto-movado daŭris laŭ akceptitaj antaŭsupozoj eĉ post la Dua Mondmilito. Evidentas aktuale, tamen, ke ni ne bezonas komunan interlingvon; ni havas la anglan, kvankam ĝi respegulas neneŭtralecon kaj neegalecon. Kontraŭe, Esperanto ĝuas la plej malaltan estimon inter la lingvoj de la mondo. La socia demando nun ne konsistiĝas el komuna interkomprenado, sed estas afero de diskriminacio. La principoj de neŭtraleco kaj egaleco respondas al la bezonoj de socia identeco.

La Esperanto-movado en praktiko orientiĝas laŭ provizado de servoj al Esperantistoj mem. D-ro Tonkin mem komence inspiriĝis de la Esperanto-komunumo, nur poste konstatis la mondskalajn sociajn implicaĵojn de la movado. Li asertas, ke la konservado de la Esperanto-komunumo malaltiĝu prioritate, favore al engaĝiĝo kun la vasta mondo.

D-ro Tonkin konceptigas la epokan diferencon laŭ la konceptoj modernismo / postmodernismo. La moderna epoko, el kiu fontis Esperanto, reliefigis la trajtojn de formalaj, hierarkiaj rilatoj, sed la postmoderna epoko estas esence reteca, neformala. Oni ankoraŭ organizas la Esperanto-movadon modernisme en postmoderna mondo. La strukturo de tradiciaj asocioj kaj la provizado de varoj al efektivaj aŭ potencialaj Esperantistoj konstrastendas al la aktuala modo de sinorganizado (ekz. Facebook). Sed la Esperanto-movado iam estis avangarda: ekz., kiam UEA fondiĝis, okazis senpera aliĝo sen landaj asocioj. Esperanto mem estis reteca. Sed finfine Esperanto lamis post la evoluo de la cetera mondo. Ni nun troviĝas en epoko en kiu oni povas agi interrete, senpage, interagi individue, eĉ neniam persone renkonti unu la alian. En ĉi tiu epoko ni ne pensu plejparte pri memkonservo de organizoj kaj varbado de novaj membroj. D-ro Tonkin laŭ propraj vortoj pensas “puritanisme”: ni ne nur ĝuu Esperanton; ni okupiĝu por pli justa mondo.

Sekvis demandoj kaj komentoj de aŭskultintoj. Estas rimarkinda generacia diferenco pri alkultimiĝo la la reta mondo. Alia problemo estas ke Usonanoj nek konas nek prikompatas lingvan diskriminacion, ankaŭ en ĝenerala etoso de “laceco pri egaleco.” Mi esprimis skeptikegemon pri la intereso de usonaj Esperantistoj pri lingva diskriminacio enlanda, kaj historie la limoj de la naci-ŝtato estas problemo el kiu rezultis diversaj lingvopolitikoj en la Esperanto-movado: la Zamenhofa, la “neŭtral”-movada (internaciisma), kaj la sennaciisma kaj la etnisma kiel kontraŭaj ekstremoj. (Flanke: neniu menciis Raŭmismon kiel alternativan perspektivon, kiu ja kontraŭdiras tion de la tradicia movado kaj kiu rezignas la movadan finvenkismon.) Responde, D-ro Tonkin asertis, ke temas pri afero de konscienco senkoncerne pri landlimoj. Estas afero de diverseco de identeco kontraŭ tutmondiga homogenigo. Min tute ne kontentigis lia respondo pri la rilato inter Esperanto kaj ĉiaspeca lingva diskriminacio, kaj restas bezonata konkretigo de rekonceptigota rilato inter aktuala reteco kaj tradiciaj organizoj. Jen elirpunktoj por plua diskutado.